Re: MONETARY: Discussion of Monetary Reform

[Norman Kurland <thirdway@cesj.org>]

Pablo,

What's the basis of your statement, "I am also of the view that a gold money system is bang in

line with Binary Economics in that it gives the users a capital 
holding in the money system - they own it literally, by holding the 
gold."

There's nothing in any of our writings to support your assertion.
pablo444@gmx.net wrote:

Hello Jock -

Thanks for your response to my recent post. Here's a few of my 
comments.


On 2 Mar 2006 at 14:32, Jock Coats wrote:

  

I kind of agree Pablo, but why do you need another mechanism/species  
(gold).

It has the same practical problems now as it did 300 years ago when  
the shysters in the London and Amsterdam coffee shops were trading it  
for bits of paper.
    

I agree. The current gold markets being a prime example. If you are 
familiar with GATA (www.gata.org), you will know that Central Bank 
and Bullion Dealer manipulation of the gold price has been going on 
heavily for the last 10 years to suppress the gold price. Central 
Bank figures would indicate they hold around 31000 tons. They do not. 
GATA has proven they hold little more than half of that. But this 
very manipulation indicates to me why gold is a force to be reckoned 
with and why it empowers the individual. In his excellent book "Gold 
Wars", the recently deceased Ferdinand Lips made the point that Govts 
FEAR gold. There are many reasons for why, but at the heart of it all 
is that gold has characteristics that make it a better money. It is 
not without its weaknesses which is why I view it as the "least 
worst" option. Yes it can be and is manipulated, but to nowhere near 
the degree that fiat money can be.

  

I agree the prospect of changing a government's way of doing things  
is a tall order, though I would, as you say, be overjoyed if we were  
to succeed.  But what about local responses - hijack the usurers'  
very own methods simply to create credit in the form of local  
currency with the backing of the common wealth.

Yes, there are then still issues of a common "carrier" currency, and  
perhaps gold, or species backed money of some kind can be that common  
currency (though the very inflexibility of supply poses issues on a  
global scale in my opinion).
    

One of my reasons for opposing Govt issue of money (as expounded by 
Stephen Zarlenga) is that I do not trust Govt. This is not a whim on 
my part but is based on historical precedent and current behaviour. 
Human controlled money systems always require a board of so-called 
"wise men". The Governors of the Bank or Local Currency as it were. I 
have no evidence to suggest that such a group has ever or can ever 
exist in relation to money and maintain any wisdom whatsoever.

Were a group of so-called "wise men" to place themselves at the 
fulcrum of a money system and all the power that attends that 
position, they would soon lose any wisdom that they possessed prior 
to their taking up the role. In other words, any person or persons 
who was truly "wise" in these matters, would not even place 
themselves in that position in the first place knowing that the 
forces at play would inevitably lead to the loss of their own wisdom. 
They would become (and do become in time) corrupted. 

I would also suggest that it is poor engineering to build a money 
system where the trust component is a human being. It is deluded to 
expect any human being placed in such a position to not become 
corrupted by the power. With gold, that problem of supreme banking 
power can be vastly reduced because in literally holding physical 
bullion or coin or specie, each individual IS the bank. They are 
holding the ultimate assett of the system. They have "Property" in 
their own money. There is no assett more ultimater than the gold. 
They do not have to TRUST the bank or a group of wise men, they 
simply TRUST the 1 ounce of gold to be and remain what it is.

A secondary argument on this also. Gold is not destroyed.

Currently 99% of all gold ever produced is still in existance. This 
over thousands of years. And this poses a very real issue for any 
other type of money system. Any other money system will always have 
to contend with gold. Because gold will always be there. And people 
will always use it because it doesn't rot, degrade or lie about what 
it is. An ounce is an ounce is an ounce. It provides a permanent 
standard against which all other things can be measured. And with a 
fixed standard in money, so can all other standards, human, 
intellectual, spiritual, be raised.

Below is a quote from Harry Schultz regarding gold. For me it states 
simply and eloquently why gold is the "least worst" option. In 
addition, I am also of the view that a gold money system is bang in 
line with Binary Economics in that it gives the users a capital 
holding in the money system - they own it literally, by holding the 
gold.

Thanks for your comments Jock. I'll aim to keep future responses more 
concise. Here's that Harry Schultz quote:

Pablo

-START-

STANDARDS. GOLD AND OTHER KINDS -- by HarrySchultz

I have written several times over the last 36 years and I want to 
restate the principle with force: I am pro-gold regardless of the 
price! I don't fight for gold in order to make a profit on gold 
shares, bars or coins! Gold is important for far more important 
reasons and I would be embarrased to promote gold only for monetary 
gain. Gold is the essential linchpin for our individual (not group or 
nation) freedom. Gold belongs to the monetary system as a governing 
factor. We belong back on the gold standard. I used to compromise and 
say a quasi-gold standard will probably do, a modified Bretton Woods 
version.

And that may be what will evolve, but in my view we should fight for 
a pure gold standard, the old-fashioned form, because it worked! And 
not just for fiscal reasons! It forced nations to limit their debt, 
spending and socialist schemes, which meant sound behavioural habits 
were formed around those limitations and those habits rubbed off on 
everyone. People were more honest, moral, decent, kind, because the 
system was honest and moral. Cause and effect. Today we have cause 
and effect of the opposite standard: no limits on what governments 
can do, control, dictate; no limit on government debt, welfare or 
socialist schemes. There is no governor on the government.

This habit rubbed off on the public, causing them to go into debt, 
lose respect for the system and morality. The effect brings us more 
divorce, fraud, crime, illegitimate births, broken homes. When the 
money of any country loses its base/backing there is no standard for 
any behaviour. Money sets a standard that spreads into every area of 
human activity. No paper money BACKING, no morality. That is why gold 
coin money worked so well and why the U.S. moved into paper money 
very slowly, carefully, keeping the paper-$'s backed 100% by gold. 
But slowly, like slicing a sausage, that backing was removed in 
stages, 'til now there is none. The effect of this cause is all 
around us.

Violent films reflect violent society reflect no respect throughout 
society. Layer by layer, we are corrupted when money loses certainty. 
Today's stock market bubble is part of the scene as will be 
tomorrow's mega-crash and mega-recession. Big Brother was made 
possible through the absence of automatic controls and loss of 
individual freedom via non-convertible currency. So, pass the word. 
Fight for gold. Not for profits, though they are helpful and help us 
fight for individual freedom, but for a future that returns to sanity 
in various standards. If we have a gold standard we get golden human 
standard! The two are intertwined. They are the ultimate cause and 
effect. Gold blesses.

-END-





  

Jock

On 2 Mar 2006, at 13:36, pablo444@gmx.net wrote:

    

Hello Dan and Mr Frazee -

Certainly, having met with both Rodney and Peter on several
occassions at the London Round Table meetings, I can vouch for their
total familiarity with the corrosive nature of the incumbent money
system.

The question of course is what action should be taken?

There is a camp that seeks to influence Govt (and related
institutions) to take control of the money supply so that all money
be issued debt free and without interest. One could call it
Lincolnism or perhaps Greenbackism. I am not of that camp (though I
would be overjoyed were they to succeed) based on the reasoning that
I am not aware of any incumbent power group happily giving up the
reigns of their power to another group, merely because that other
group had a "better" way of doing things.

The predominant money system is a societal control mechanism for
ensuring that those at the top (as they themselves view things)
remain at the top. And Govts enjoy considerable power in the current
arrangement and have little incentive, as yet, to give it up. They
love to spend money on their latest pet socialist projects (a never
ending stream of those) and this privately issued, publicly disguised
money system suits that purpose very well.

A way I tend to favour is to work towards out-competing the current
money system. And in this fun, capitalist complying model, I see gold
as a favoured ammunition.

To put things into contentious and politically incorrect language,
the aim simply, is to launder Federal Reserve Notes, Euros, GB Pounds
etc into gold and then conduct an ever increasing % of your daily
transactions in gold. Laundering is the correct term when one
considers the true nature and qualities of a Federal Reserve Note,
primary amongst which are:

1. It loses value relentlessly and can do nothing else under the
"Let's print a Billion" ethos of the Fed.

2. It is issued as a debt, repayable by the Govt.

3. It is interest bearing in such a design that its repayment is
technically impossible, so giving the lie to point 2.

4. It's acceptance in payment of taxes gives it its coercive, force
backed quality which degrades free exchange.

5. It has produced a group of users who, because of its system
design, are literally addicted to it and require an ever increasing
amount to feed their addiction.

6. By subtly setting all men against one another, it gradually and
inevitably destroys civilised behaviour and with it civilisation.

Federal Reserve Notes and drugs produce similar effects and for that
reason, "Laundering" them is in fact a moral, social and spiritual
imperative. Govts are already "addicts" and therefore it is
unrealistic to expect them to cure themselves or to treat kindly
anyone who may be manouvering to cut off their supply.

So, launder FRN's into gold and then use gold (or any other precious
metal) to effect transactions.

Why gold?

The primary reason is that no one, that is NO ONE, can make more of
it at the drop of a hat. Not even the people who may head up and run
the multiplicity of private gold currency systems such as e-gold,
pecunix, goldmoney, e-bullion etc etc.

I am not gold bug. And in his book "The Lost Science of Money",
Stephen Zarelenga clearly shows the mistaken thinking around gold as
money. But his alternative, to trust Govt, is naieve. Gold is the
least worst option, of that there is no doubt.

Here's to an Honest Money System (no matter what form it may
ultimately take).

Regards

Pablo









On 2 Mar 2006 at 4:50, Dan Parker wrote:

      

Dear Mr. Frazee,

Having communicated with Rodney Shakespeare, and having
read the book he co-wrote with Peter Challen (who heads
the Christian Council for Monetary Justice), I can say that he,
along with many of us, are aware of the monetary dynamics
you so poetically describe.

The bigger question is how best to advance monetary
reform. We are engaged in a variety of efforts. I self-
publish a magazine, do the website for the Alberta
Social Credit Party and also one for Global Justice.
As well we have had city councils pass resolutions calling
for the creation of interest-free money etc.

I think it is important to try to bring a lot of these ideas
together to create synergy, which is needed due to the
resources of the opposition. We have put enough resources
together to effectively educate.

http://www.whitecourtweb.com/whitecourt_advisor.htm

http://www.globaljusticemovement.org/

http://www.socialcredit.com/

Regards
Dan Parker
        

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--
Jock Coats - Chair, Oxfordshire Community Land Trusts
c/o Warden's Flat 1e, J Block Morrell Hall, OXFORD, OX3 0FF
w: +44 (0)1865 483353 h: +44 (0)1865 485019
m: +44 (0)7769 695767 e: jock.coats@oclt.org.uk
www: http://www.oclt.org.uk/ - http://jockcoats.blogspot.com/




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