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Monetary Reform Discussion


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Re: MONETARY: Discussing the unjust monopoly. Wally Klinck offerssome comments re this recent discussion.



Hi Dan! (and others)
 
I'm falling a bit behind, but here are some comments:
 
1.  Silvio Gessell:  The eary Alberta "Social Credit" government tried their stamp script scheme as a completely corrupted form of "Social Credit."  For obvious reasons, people did not accept it well.  Who would want their (monetary) assets to arbitrarily depreciate merely by holding them?  It was a forced spending scheme and is contrary to freedom of choice and economic democracy.  Consumers should not feel compelled to spend their money by some outside coercion.  I believe the brief Alberta Gessellian "experiment" was the brainchild of Lucien Maynard--it was certainly not Social Credit!  As one Social Crediter (H.E. Nicholls) once correctly told me, "The problem with the present orthodox financial system is that it already cancels money at too great a rate."
 
2.  I haven't just recently read Thoren's material but as I recall it was based upon the added costs of interest.  It did not deal with the consumption/production ratio and the real cost of production, nor with the premature cancellation of purchasing power and the time element as per Douglas's A+B Theorem.   No question of crediting the consumer with the appreciation of capital as against capital depreciation ever came up in Thoren to the best of my knowledge.  Nor was it a comprehensive philosophical, socio-economic body of thought in the Social Credit sense.  This is not to say that Thoren is not worth reading.
 
3.  Re Kelso and Adler, et. al:  This scheme I read years ago and I had a continuing debate with a farmer out Jasper way who had become a fervent advocate.  Again, the so-called "binary economics" relied, as I recall, in issuing loans to citizens (workers) so that they might in time aquire industrial/commercial shares from which dividends would be received to augment their earned incomes.  It seems to me that this assumes a fundamentally self-liquidating price-system in accord with orthodox financial accountancy and does not deal with the true cost of production.  That is, it seems that these incomes would all register as a cost through the financial price-system--instead of of originating from outside the costing-system to compensate and cancel financial costs which according to realistic accountancy should not be passed on the the consumer.  Again, as you commented, the rationale, justification and basis of the debt-free money issued by Social Credit to compensate a fundamental flaw in the price-system, i.e., the Unearned Increment(s) of Association and resulting Cultural Heritage (plus some theological and metaphysical considerations) are not all so obviously a part of the Kelso (Second Income) proposals.  I see nothing in the scheme which envisages anything like the lowered price-level that the Douglas proposals would effect.  Incidentally, Social Credit definintely does not seek a stable price-level.  The ideal price-level is zero.  To do so would deny society the real benefit of genuine increased techological production efficiency and would violate the Social Credit concept of price according to natural law.  As a matter of incidental interest, with a drastically reduced price-level the economy would not necessarily require an increasing volume of money to function in the way that it does at present.  Social Credit has nothing against wide ownership of capital and would certainly result in the efflorescence of creative enterprise and action by those who wish to engage in commercial production and invention and also in the area of creative leisured activity.  However, the main concern of Social Credit is that the results flowing from the production system are accessible to the consuming public on the broadest level.  There is no reason to assume that everyone wants, or should want, to own capital--but by general inheritance all are entitled to benefit from the wealth that flows from it.
 
4.  So far as usury (interest, compound or otherwise) is concerned, Social Credit would balance all costs with effective income.  But there being no further need for consumer bank loans to clear the market and with the Social Credit methods of financing production (all from new credits, emphasis on equity investment, the establishment of a National Credit account, etc.) financial credit will always equate with real credit and no monetary shortage can exist.  The centralising and exploitative problems associated with usury (interest, as such) should die a natural death.
 
5.  The "Gross National Product":  it was inherent in the Douglas proposals from the beginning that the present system forces society to engage in all manner of projects and activities which can in no rational manner be regarded as socially desired, desirable or beneficial to humankind.  See "The Delusion of Super-Production" (The English Review:  December, 1918).  The theme was consistent thereafter.  But what is desirable or not is a subjective matter and Social Credit leaves that to the individual (consumer) in a context of economic democracy wherein there exists a consumer-motivated economy.  Under these circumstances, the legitimacy of gross production has to be accepted as a genuine expression of consumer citizens casting their money-votes according to their own desires.  There is no way for the state to determine what is socially beneficial in this particular area and to attempt to do so would be resorting to something akin to central planning and imposition of state policy in the area of social values and economic production policy.  Dangerous!  Totalitarian!  Contrary to Christian values!  (Social Credit is supposed to be the incarnation of the Christian policy of genuine freedom in our practical or organic relationships, i.e., displacement of the metaphysical doctrine of salvation through works by the doctrine of salvation through grace--Dividends, "something for nothing!") Of course in the area of state services and capital spending, these must be subject to electoral approval. 
 
6.  I see much merit to a flat tax on commercial bank clearings should it be required for whatever need, perhaps including adjustment of the money supply if ever necessary.  The whole nightmare of the present tax system would be effectively eliminated--the complexity, the massive administrative structure with its expense, litigation, accountancy costs, intimidation and fear--and plain waste and sabotage of human effort would be terminated.  By the way, in 1944 Canadian consumer debt was about five percent of annual income and is now well over one-hundred percent with bank issued consumer loans being the main feature of this debt.  How can the establishment orthodox experts sanely conclude that it makes sense to add a further burden such as the General Sales Tax on consumption when it is so obviously and endemically underfunded already?
 
7.  The Compensated Price:  Discussion to be pursued at another time.
 
Sincerely
Wallace (Wally) M. Klinck
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Parker
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: MONETARY: Discussing the unjust monopoly

I am not in favour of Thoren's model per se, but used it
to point out his math about taxation.  I believe he advocated
private production investment through the private banks
(which would lend money to industry that it had borrowed
from the government at a 'wholesale' rate); and direct government
spending of the money it created on public production
investment.  Again, I don't find this a leading model,
just an illustration of the math that was worked out
regarding taxation possibilities.  His books are still 
available on the Internet I believe, for those who are
interested. 
 
I have only read outlines of binary economics.  I think social
credit has the potential to be a more complete solution than
binary economics, in that it focuses on the effects of
automation and the resultant free time available for the
individual.  Capital is bequeathed to the population as a
whole, rather than just those that are working in the money
economy.  The concept of the Cultural Heritage is used
to justify this, in that the improvements by innovators and
inventors long dead belong to the community as a whole;
not just an elite, nor workers who comprise the other 1%
input into production. 
 
I find the compensated price aspect of social credit to be
an area in need of improvement, but I haven't had time to
investigate other possibilities here yet.  In any case, the
compensated price is one mechanism by which capital is
transferred to the general population (through purchases
that are increasingly subsidized, as automation and
production improves).
 
For a brief introduction to social credit see
 
 
Regards
Dan Parker
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: MONETARY: Discussing the unjust monopoly

Dear Monetary Reform members,
 
Dan Parker rightly refers to the need to remove compound interest from the system. 
 
 He also refers to Theodore Thoren's idea of government creation of money.  Did Thoren want this money to be just spent on consumption (which is what Social Credit tends to favour) or does it also address production investment?  Did Thoren have any concept of wide capital ownership?  I point out to Dan that binary economics most certainly does address actual wealth creation.  Has Dan read Binary Economics -- the new paradigm?
 
Rodney Shakespeare.