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Re: HOMESTEAD: Postings related to Democratic Capitalism
Thanks for that Rodney. I think the bit of your earlier message I disagree with then is that only the endogenous loans movement understand the importance of interest free money. Maybe that's not what you meant? And what's more, by that I thought you meant only the endogenous loans movement appreciates the problem of debt based money itself.
Now I see, I hope, you are not claiming that, but claiming that interest free loans are a better way of addressing this than introducing debt free money - does that about sum up the biggest difference? Sorry for the non-technical language.
(Feel free to take this off the list and into private correspondence if it's not appropriate for the HOMESTEAD list)
Jock
On 2 Aug 2005, at 21:44, Rodney Shakespeare wrote:
Dear Jock,
Thankyou for your email. James Robertson and Michael Rowbotham (UK authors) are most certainly not part of the endogenous loan movement and I never claimed -- or indicated -- they were.
I am not aware that James Robertson, for example, posits the use of interest-free credit for capital investment. The term "interest-free" means a repayable loan.
When I was last in contact with Robertson I pointed out that he had no proposal for capital investment (and that is one of the weaknesses of social credit in general) and he did not seem to have any answer.
And, as far as I know, Rowbotham does not deal with the matter either. However if, as you possibly indicate, they are now, at last, getting some sort of proposal for capital investment that is good news but they have taken a long time getting round to it. However I strongly doubt if they have any proposal for interest-free loans for productive capacity. Robertson and Rowbotham are simply a long way behind, and out of touch with, the developing international situation.
There is a frightful muddle going on about the difference between debt-free (non-repayable) money and interest-free (repayable) loans. The interest-free loans are repayable loans designed to be directed at productive capacity (the "real economy") particularly for wide ownership etc. Your phrase "interest-free non-debt" money is really debt-free (non-repayable) money. It is the virtual opposite of interest-free loans which are repayable.
And none of the UK Bromsgrove people has any proposal for interest-free loans either -- they are all basically social credit debt-free (non-repayable) issuance people and just do not understand that they scare the living daylights out of UK MPs who view their proposal for debt-free (non-repayable) money as:--
a) inflationary
b) not directed at productive capacity
c) exclusive of the private sector. (And Robertson's latest book tries, but fails, to answer these objections).
Moreover, the latest UK Early Day Motion (promoted by Bromsgrove people) is couched in language designed to deceive MPs as to what is meant (it means debt-free non-repayable but tries to indicate it means interest-free repayable). The EDM has not deceived MPs -- only nine have signed. In the past, when the texts of the relevant EDMs were at least more honest about what the EDM meant, they got many more signatures from the MPs.
Yes, you and other members of this elist have only heard from me the phrase "endogenous loan movement" but I did offer to tell Ownership members more (did I not?) and nobody took up the offer. The Ownership elist had the opportunity to be at the cutting edge of what is happening and all it could do was to show paralysis. I and colleagues are quite happy being invited to the various universities where the issues are presented, the word goes out -- and more invitations result. The problem is to find the time to do it all -- I recently had to turn down a good opportunity. The latest opportunity is only recently arranged and in a hurry -- one of Canada's greatest universities in September. That's after I have been to Trisakti university (the birthplace of the reformasi movement) in Jakarta in September and before I return to Jakarta for another conference not at Trisakti in November which is before the universal paradigm conference in Dacca Bangladesh in December by which time I hope to have resolved the 2006 situation with that great American university I have previously mentioned on Ownership/
. Could you remind me -- have you read Seven Steps? It is the key to understanding the endogenous loan movement. As a general promoter of debt-free (non-repayable) money and not interest-free repayable loans you are right to view yourself as not being part.
Yours,
Rodney
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jock Coats" <jock.coats@oxfordshirecommunitylandtrusts.org.uk>
To: <homestead@cog.kent.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: HOMESTEAD: Postings related to Democratic Capitalism
> On 2 Aug 2005, at 17:21, Rodney Shakespeare wrote:
>
> > Apart from binary economics, the only movement (and it is growing
> > rapidly) which understands such use of the money supply is the
> > endogenous
> > loan movement.
>
> Rodney,
>
> Having not even heard the phrase "endogenous loan" until your posts on
> these various mailing lists, I would have to disagree.
>
> Would you say that James Robertson and Michael Rowbotham are part of
> the "endogenous loan movement" and if so do they know it? For they
> don't mention it so far as I have read of them. Yet they understand
> only too well the effects of debt money and posit solutions for it that
> involve the creation of interest free credit.
>
> For my part I do not see how any Georgist, at least in the UK with its
> land price hyperinflation can ignore the issue of debt free money as a
> way of maintaining the money supply in an LVT based system to replace
> the debt that would slowly disappear as land values deflate and the
> loans outstanding on land value contracts.
>
> I understand and promote interest free non-debt money on every occasion
> I can, but would not consider myself to be a part of this movement.
>
> Jock
> --
> J1e Morrell Hall, OXFORD, OX3 0BP, United Kingdom
> T: +44 1865 485019 F: +44 845 1275714 M: +44 7769 695767
>
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--
J1e Morrell Hall, OXFORD, OX3 0BP, United Kingdom
T: +44 1865 485019 F: +44 845 1275714 M: +44 7769 695767
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